Locked Question about paging file size!

[JioFunny]

Hello, so nowadays we all know it is not good to have paging file size disabled as it often causes issues in some games etc. So.. if you are me, With 200gb storage (ssd 860 Evo), lite os from here, 16gb of ram and only 1 thing installed in your pc (cod warzone) (i5 9600kf, rtx2060 just to let you guys know)

So here is the question. What is keeping me from setting a big paging file size to make sure I have enough and that there will be no problems? Say ex. initial and max the same.. 12gb. I heard that perhaps it will cause the ssd to run slow? Will it impact the performance that much that I will notice something is wrong in game?

I just thought of one more thing.. If my system is that emty and uses only 8% of my ram, why is it bad to disable paging file size? Shouldn't that reduce processes happening in the background while gaming and provide a smoother experience?

A detailed response would be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,
JioFunny

 

[Jerry_Xristos]

The page file, also known as the swap file, pagefile, or paging file, is a file on your hard drive. It’s located at C:\pagefile.sys by default, but you won’t see it unless you tell Windows Explorer not to hide protected operating system files.
Your computer stores files, programs, and other data you’re using in your RAM (random access memory) because it’s much faster to read from RAM than it is to read from a hard drive. For example, when you open Firefox, Firefox’s program files are read from your hard drive and placed into your RAM. The computer uses the copies in RAM rather than repeatedly reading the same files from your hard drive.
Programs store the data they’re working with here. When you view a web page, the web page is downloaded and stored in your RAM. When you watch a YouTube video, the video is held in your RAM.
When your RAM becomes full, Windows moves some of the data from your RAM back to your hard drive, placing it in the page file. This file is a form of virtual memory. While writing this data to your hard disk and reading it back later is much slower than using RAM, it’s back-up memory — rather than throwing potentially important data away or having programs crash, the data is stored on your hard drive.
Windows will try to move data you aren’t using to the page file. For example, if you’ve had a program minimized for a long time and it isn’t doing anything, its data may be moved from RAM to your page file. If you maximize the program later and notice that it takes a while to come back instead of instantly snapping to life, it’s being swapped back in from your page file. You’ll see your computer’s hard disk light blinking as this happens.
With enough RAM in modern computers, the average user’s computer shouldn’t normally use the page file in normal computer use. If you do see your hard drive start to grind away and programs start to slow down when you have a large amount open, that’s an indication that your computer is using the page file — you can speed things up by adding more RAM. You can also try freeing up memory — for example, by getting rid of useless programs running in the background.
Some people will tell you that you should disable the page file to speed up your computer. The thinking goes like this: the page file is slower than RAM, and if you have enough RAM, Windows will use the page file when it should be using RAM, slowing down your computer.
This isn’t really true. People

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and found that, while Windows can run without a page file if you have a large amount of RAM, there’s no performance benefit to disabling the page file.
However, disabling the page file can result in some bad things. If programs start to use up all your available memory, they’ll start crashing instead of being swapped out of the RAM into your page file. This can also cause problems when running software that requires a large amount of memory, such as virtual machines. Some programs may even refuse to run.
In summary, there’s no good reason to disable the page file — you’ll get some hard drive space back, but the potential system instability won’t be worth it.
But the final choise is yours, sometimes you gain something but you also lose something...................

 

[Cyler]

Interesting topic. I will try to avoid going too technical and deep into windows system and OS mechanics in general, (hard to do sometimes, it's my job), and before we start it's better to state some facts just so we all understand and will be on the same page.

- Paging / Swap is a method to use a portion of a disk as RAM for when we might run applications that exceeded our total physical ram. In any case that an OS ( be that Linux, Windows, or macOS) runs out of ram, it will lead to catastrophic crashes.
- Paging/Swap file, is the file that the system will use to store temporary data that were supposed to exist on RAM.
- Modern OSes are designed around the concept of swap and actually use it very intelligently.

In the particular case of windows, apart from the use of swap when in need of extra ram, they use swap to preemptively "store" data that are not much in use but need to be ready. That includes a lot of system drivers and processes. This is ultimately a point that some modders miss as there is no real point to disable processes for the sake of ram as those processes if they are not in need by the system, they won't use ram and they will be stored in the swap. Consequentially this is also one of the reasons why a lot of programs might crash without swap.

Based on the above we understand that the swap is not used ONLY when our ram is full, but also its a way of dumbing anything that must exist in RAM space but is not needed all the time, which makes the use of swap a LOT more preferable. In reality and you can test it, your system will use more physical ram without swap and as you use more apps, it can become slower, compared to using swap and that is why it is never suggested to turn it off. The exception would be for some embedded devices which most of the time don't have hard disks (medical equipment for example), diskless workstations, etc.

I need to also say here that, when a user has multiple apps running and windows kernel detects that an app is not used often, it will send it (or parts of it) to swap anyway, regardless of the ram one has, and use the free ram for caching reasons, which in general speeds the system up. When you don't use swap, the app stays in ram but the system cant use ram for caching which tends to make the PC slower when multitasking.

Now that we know what it can do, how do we set it? Sadly the internet while it can be a great source of info, can also be a great source of misinformation. Often I run across articles on known publications that state things that don't even make sense. For example, the infamous "set the swap to be 2x-4x your ram". So I have 64 Gb ram I should have 256 GB Swap? LOL!! Doesn't make much sense right? Those are relics of the past when PCs had 1 GB of ram or less and the OS needs were exceeding the average hardware of the time. Now we have the opposite. Hardware is far more advanced than software (for the time).

A realistic scenario is simply to let windows handle the swap themselves. With the speed of the current SSDs and M.2s, you won't even feel you are using swap if that ever be the case. An argument can be made for setting swap to have small/large values the same also called static swap. That can be beneficial IF one is using a spinner disk, not really if you use an SSD. By setting a static pagefile, you may reduce seek times if the pagefile gets fragmented on spinner disks, as seek times can cause delays. SSDs Seek time is virtually zero.

For an average user, I don't see any reason why you should have more than 2-4 Gb swap file and windows will default to that too if I remember well. If you use databases or a lot of VMs or running many heavy apps concurrently, you are not an average user and let windows handle the swap as you can never accurately know how much you will need, and if you set it manually you may risk just wasting space, or make your PC underperform.

I want to assume that most know what ram they have and also know their limitations. When you have 8Gb of ram, there is no point to run 10 Windows and Linux VMs, and swap won't save you no matter where you will set it, and it will just make the process painfully slow. When you have 16 Gb and your app recommends 32, swap will only add delay and frustration.

Hope it helped and that we have a better understanding of what swap is and does.

 

[Light_Eater]

That was a good read @Jerry_Xristos and @Cyler, thank you guys

 

[DGrigorescu]

I want to make one more comment from my experience. YouTube use also hdd space, not just swap and ram. Few years ago somebody asks me " why large clips from YT doesn't work?". And i noticed very little free space on the system drive, even if ram and pagefile was enough. So the cache is done also in temp folders, not only in RAM and PAGE. My conclusion is a few gigs of free space on system drive, preferable +/- 10 are required for an optimal experience. So -/- 15 gb, that means page plus free space, are required. And if you use an old sata hdd 30 for defragmentation purposes few times per year. That means at least 50 gb system drive. Just for the system, all other things on other disks/psrtitions. Come on, is enough space for all and you don't need to store everything if it's just for personal use. Really not. Let's let the computers sleep a while if we can and enjoy some fresh air, because even if we are/were not covid affected it's not ok to stay too much in our homes. It's really depressive. This sounds for me too.

 

[JioFunny]

Honestly, I searched a lot before giving up and coming here to ask people. I read 2 webpages/posts and multiple threads from other websites. Some were close and kinda made sense but were still missing something.
But this.. here.. wish I could share this thread for the world to see. You guys are gold thank you so much.
Although you answered in detail and left no holes, I still had some questions rise in my head.

First of I want to state that, I mentioned I have installed the light os from here in 200gb storage. Truth is, this 200gb is a partition I made after I split my main partition which has normal win pro installed. So I have two os installed in my ssd 860 Evo 500gb. Now I want to mention that, in my main partition win pro that I have installed 4 months now, it too is completely empty. I only have cod warzone installed and msi afterburner (I don't run MSI afterburner when warzone is running). I am the kind of guy that has a black screen as background pic and no desktop icons, neither taskbar icons. In these 4 months I have been playing the game in winpro with page file disabled. Am I to be considered lucky that nothing ever went wrong and the fact that I had 0 stuttering or any issues at all, (unlike other people running the same game)?

Now my questions after what I read and things I understood:
*"With enough RAM in modern computers, the average user’s computer shouldn’t normally use the page file in normal computer use. If you do see your hard drive start to grind away and programs start to slow down when you have a large amount open, that’s an indication that your computer is using the page file —"*

So what I understand from here is that, there is the possibility to truly not need page file, for ex., if you are crazy like me and run only one game in an entire os and have every little thing closed while you run it. BUT! windows page file is working smart and even if you don't need it but you have it enabled, it will barely be used by a system like this that runs only one thing and has enough ram and storage, so even if you have it in auto or manual with a huge max limit, there is no downside other than the fact that you eat up storage space. But in my case storage space is not an issue. I want to add that before I come here I read somewhere on a website that using a manual big page file size more than necessary will slow down your computer. But based on what you say, that is not true as long as I have enough extra space in the hard drive and enough RAM. So the question still remains: Is there ANY possibility that when having page file enabled that it could cause any kind of stuttering while gaming due to the extra process in the background and the fact that it doesn't rely exclusively on RAM?
In case there is absolutely no way it could interfere somehow with the game, then like you say *"swap is not used ONLY when our ram is full, but also its a way of dumbing anything that must exist in RAM space but is not needed all the time, which makes the use of swap a LOT more preferable."* One should use swap 100%. And if you don't have enough storage use auto. But if you do have enough storage you can put a bigger max value to make sure it's okay.

I am presenting specific cases and extreme scenarios not only because it's my case but also because if I can get you to show me what the limits are and what happens then, I will have a 100% complete understanding of it and what happens when you do what.

Again thank you so much for this.. thank you for taking the time to properly explain something instead of just throwing some stuff just because most will not get it.
@Jerry_Xristos and @Cyler

 

[Cyler]

Now my questions after what I read and things I understood:
*"With enough RAM in modern computers, the average user’s computer shouldn’t normally use the page file in normal computer use. If you do see your hard drive start to grind away and programs start to slow down when you have a large amount open, that’s an indication that your computer is using the page file —"*

Noooot exactly. Slowdowns may happen for a lot of reasons, for which excessive use of swap can be one. Note the word excessive. After all for 512 Mb of swap usage, your SSD will write it in 1-2 seconds, you will hardly notice anything. If you use PCi4, even less.

there is no downside other than the fact that you eat up storage space. But in my case storage space is not an issue.

You won't eat storage unless you (your system) request it. Min and max values are exactly what they say. You can set the max as high as you want, you just tell windows NO MORE than that. An auto there isn't a "no more than that" (not 100% accurate, but we will get too technical if we go deeper with kernel talk). Just keep in mind that the swap is not always used for RAM. A % of that is used as ram replacement. The other is used by the system for internal reasons (including kernel dumps, debugging, caching, etc). The Min value is the one that will use the disk no matter what which can be a waste of space. In your case for example windows might use only 100 MB since you keep things to a minimum. If you set a min value of 2Gb, you just wasted 1.9 GB for, no gain in performance... you get the picture.

...i want to add that before I come here I read somewhere on a website that using a manual big page file size more than necessary will slow down your computer. But based on what you say, that is not true as long as I have enough extra space in the hard drive and enough RAM...

I think you are mixing a couple of things here, which is a common misunderstanding. Let me clear it with an example

Let's say you have 2 rooms. One with 10 boxes and one with 1000 boxes. Even tho you want one box, in which room will you find it or store it faster? small or big?
That's the relevance of swap size and speed. The larger a swap will become, the slower the process will be, after a certain point, and depends on the system, disk speed, ram speed, CPU, usage, etc, but that point is well beyond what an average user will do. In order to experience such a slow down on a modern PC, you need to go to like 32-64 Gb of ram usage which I find impossible to happen just by one app and especially a game. Very few games can even cross the 16 Gb Ram usage and that is if you play at 8k with high textures. For normal (1080p) games won't use more than 6Gb-8GB ram (if even) and at 4k maybe shy of 10 GB. What the games ask is Vram and not RAM so much.

So the question still remains: Is there ANY possibility that when having page file enabled that it could cause any kind of stuttering while gaming due to the extra process in the background and the fact that it doesn't rely exclusively on RAM?

As long as the game can fit on the ram, swap or not should NOT play any role. Why I say should? Cause I haven't built that system and I haven't installed/tweaked windows and I never vouch for anyone else work other than my own

But why ask, when you can test. Set swap to auto, let windows adjust (they always do) by running the game a couple of times, and then compare the FPS since you have Afterburner. On the other hand, if you are ok with what you have, I will remind you the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

[Light_Eater]

Dear @JioFunny ,

You have an OS and one game (which contains a bunch of programs), after you restart the system go to task manager and check number of running processes + threads this processes spawned.
There are hundreds of them, isn't it. Some stuff will be executed and put at the back burner (swap), but in your case they need to stay in ram.
People think that swap is used when ram is used in 100%, but that is obviously not the case, swap is used to make ram available.
When ever your cpu isn't used heavily (and only then, unless the sytuation is critical) system will run routines to maintain itself, including writing stuff to swap to make sure ram is as free as possible,
so you could throw more task if you need, also trying to deduct what stuff is better to keep in ram. The same is happening in a cpu with its registers.
Relation between registers and ram is the same as between ram and drives.

Can you run your system without swap? You check it yourself, so you know the answer. At the end of the day that is your system and you can do what ever you want with it.

 

[Mr. Spacely]

Holly cow. Enough here I think. Good bye to this mess.